Questions and Answers
Hi there. Given that I haven’t read the book yet - I will - and I totally understand that this is out of scope, but I’m really interested in how governance can be applied to layers further up the stack. I think there’s a lot of lessons that could be applied to other areas of the stack, which is common in certain industries like finance, but non existent everywhere else.
Q: Given what you’ve learnt writing and experiencing this, where can these ideas best be applied next? Which part of the ML stack could benefit most?
I am not quite certain I am clear on what “layers up the stack” mean, but the topic of ML models is interesting. An ML model is both an executable (meaning it needs access to machine resources - CPU/RAM) and operates on data. The combination of Data Governance and Resource Governance becomes complex and interesting, but generally speaking, we tried to stick to broad concepts in this book. Great topic for a follow-up though!
Sorry Uri Gilad I should have clarified but yes I think you get my drift. You’ve done data governance.
What about governance for:
This is what I mean by stack. MLOps terminology. Sorry.
So the question remains, from your experience writing this book, what do you think about governance all-the-things?
Thanks for doing this! Is there really a major difference between top-down and bottom-up data governance? Which tends to be more effective?
I am taking “Top down governance” to mean pushing down policies from above. While there are benefits to centralized management care should be taken not to overwhelm individual analysts with rules, because they will find ways to “do their job faster”. I would prefer a “carrot” (no stick) approach in which you get access to MORE data under centrally managed policies
- AI Governance includes several topics discussed in the book such as lineage of where the data came from and how it is used in a model. There is a highly related topic concerning bias in AI which we did not approach in the book which focuses on how to make sure data used in AI does not introduce certain biases (many examples )
- Where do we see data governance going in the next five, ten years? - I believe it will become tablestakes for an organization to care not only about access to data but also about how it is used, and for what purpose. The book really talks about basic processes you can set, but its up to “corporate culture” to adopt the approaches
- “How effective is data governance? Does it really protect us individuals against maleficent usage of our data by corporations and governments?”
- data governance is not a “solve all” - it is a set of principles (and processes) you can put in place to make sure the data an analysts accesses is appropriate for their permissions and their task at hand. At the end of the day, you are trusting people and there are very few ways to prevent individuals from willful misuse (for example, you can always put a video camera in front of your monitor and scroll tables in front of it)
Very excited to see this book come through! For individuals working in locations where they’re building this all from scratch, the totality of everything that needs to get done can be daunting. How do you recommend assessing and prioritizing tasks to build out mature data governance systems?
My recommendation would be to prioritize. Start with the big rocks, and focus on where “most data is” and proceed from there. While you do that, keep scaling up in mind so that you will be able to encompass more and more areas. There are multiple tools at hand (discussed in the book ) Some of those are already included with your Bigdata infrstructure
I would also add to begin with a few things and then fan out from there.
One thing we’ve seen work pretty well is to begin with selecting the most important data that you have to govern: remember it’s not only the “scary stuff” (like PII) but could also be data that is used to make business decisions
once you have identified a few of these “top categories” you can begin focusing on classifying/tagging/labeling and treating this data first
This is especially useful when you don’t have a lot of headcount to be mining through data, enriching it, curating it, etc.
These are all very helpful comments! Thanks Uri Gilad and Jessi Ashdown!
❓ In your experience what are some of the ways you were able to convince executive level to understand the business value of governance and feel the need to invest?
The low hanging fruits data governance solves are
“having analysts spend less time on finding data, and more time on extracting value from data” and in addition, “being able to tell who has access to what”
If those two are not already a problem n your org, you are in a very good place already!
Thanks, as a follow up to the second low hanging 🍎 . If there isn’t concern or understanding about the value of who has access to what, how would you get engagement in that conversation?
many organizations are liable to regulation such as GDPR which mandates (not explicitly) understanding of this sort.
Smaller organizations which are not liable, or alternatively have a “everyone has access to anything” should still set the ground rules in a way which eventually, once they scale up - complying with such regulation becomes easier
Thanks Uri, I’m 💯 with you, I’m curious if you have any tips or pointers on how to show the business value to setup now for the future or does it typically come down to when they need the regulations it gets called into action
❔ What are the first things that companies should think about when starting out with data governance?
One of the first places to start is to identify what data you should start to govern first and what kind of headcount you have that can work on this effort. You cannot govern what you don’t know, so you must begin with identifying (at least) two classes of data: sensitive stuff and then the “valuable stuff” (data that help the business make better decisions). Once you’ve identified these classes you can begin to categorize and enrich the data that falls into these classes. If you have the headcount to do more than this - great - but when you’re starting out you likely don’t. You likely have a few people who are having to do this work ON TOP of their other daily tasks.
The second thing is to identify who is doing what. This is often a piece that gets overlooked and when it does it becomes a free-for-all with tasks not being done well, or worse, not at all. Even if you only have a few people who are taking on governance tasks make it clear who is responsible for what part of the process.
you are so welcome!!
Hi Uri Gilad & Jessi Ashdown! Thanks fortaking the time to answer our questions.
Do data lineage, data cataloguing (data dictionary), data security & user access management go under Data Governance? If you’re just starting to take these steps in an organization, what’s the recommended order to start things up? And do you cover these in your book?
yes, we do cover these topics in the book. Generally speaking lineage/catalog/security/access managements are aspects of Data Governance.
I would recommend actually starting from the Data view - what data does your org manage, what are the requirements for said data (e.g. protect PII) and later finding the tools to help with that.
Hi! Looking forward to reading the book in the next few weeks! 📖
I am curious to see your view on Data Governance initiatives implemented in small companies versus big organisations. Do you think it is more of a challenge in big corporations and easier small companies?
Great question! I hate to say it but it depends 🙂 I’ll unpack that a little though - there are different factors that make it easier/more difficult and company size is only one of the them.
The kind of data and amount of it that’s sensitive effects the difficulty of governance regardless of if an organization is large vs. small. A small company may PRIMARILY deal with sensitive data which can make governance a lot more challenging vs a large company that only has a small percentage of sensitive data.
Also, on the one had smaller companies often have less employees so there is less complication with granting access controls, however, smaller headcount can also mean that less governance tasks overall are completed. Chapter 3 of the book goes into greater detail on these specific factors!
Thanks! Good point on smaller headcount can also mean less governance tasks are completed 🤯
When implementing a data governance initiative, we know it is usually hard to convince management to fund it properly.
In my experience, it is also hard to “convince” Data Engineers/Analysts/Scientists to invest in data governance initiatives (good documentation, working agreements between teams,…). How would you suggest to tackle investment in data governance initiatives in Individual Contributors that are not motivated so spend time on this topics?
Excellent point and insight (chapter 9 of the book goes into this as well!) One of the things we mention in the book is creating a data culture. There are many aspects of a successful culture of protection but you’re exactly right - motivation is key. One way we’ve seen this work well is in being really intentional about how you divide governance tasks. Often Data Engineers/Scientists/Analysts are not motivated because too many tasks fall onto them. When you define a process and identify who is responsible for what it makes the governance strategy less ambiguous. Another thing we’ve also seen work is to have ongoing “training” that is relevant to folks. So, perhaps there is a Governance Week that includes daily 1hr trainings that apply to these roles - such as how gov tools you currently have can help them do their job better, or a training around something that is very relevant to governance that’s been in the news. These sorts of things tap into the psychology of folks connecting these tasks to themselves - and when they can see the benefit and aren’t overwhelmed they’re far more likely to follow through.
What are the most important things to formalise first when starting a Data Governance initiative?
First and foremost it’s really important to identify where your company is in its governance journey to begin with: do you know what all your data is? Do you know where all of it is? Do you know who has access to what? This is the first thing to assess. Most organizations will answer “no” or “sort of” to the above and in that case they must first begin with what data they need to govern now. In general this will be the “scary stuff” (PII, etc.), and the “business critical stuff” (the key data that helps the company to make data driven biz decisions). This is where to start as trying to govern everything all at once is incredibly overwhelming! The next step is to then think about the process: you’ve identified what needs to be governed, now you need to identify how you’re going to do that. Will you use tools? Tagging? Labeling? Just moving data into different storage areas? You need to define the process and then the tasks that involved in this process (note: if you have minimal budget and/or headcount try to identify the bare minimum here). Then (and this is super important) you need to define who is going to do those tasks. And to your point above, it can help to divide these tasks up. But the key here is to make it VERY clear who is responsible for what tasks - and have a way to check on this; make sure they get done.
Thanks a lot for your answers! Looking forward to reading the book!
You’re so welcome! 🙂
Maybe it’s a silly question, but what is actually data governance? why should we care about it?
Actually a great question! The way we’ve defined gov in the book is really looking at the policies and procedures that maximize the utilization of data while also ensuring data quality, security, and regulatory compliance. So - it’s more than just security or how to conduct access control - which is often how governance is defined. So in this way we should care about it because it’s the process by which you can make your data useful - in terms of being able to derive insights from it while also protecting it.
Do you have an example of such policy from the top of your mind?
Something like “All data must go to this database and must be documented in this spreadsheet”?
Yes, that’s def an example of one such policy. Another could be: all data from 3rd party vendors go into XX storage. Or credit card numbers are only retained for 30 days… or even, sales, income, and roi all are labeled “revenue”
That’s clear now! Thank you!
If I work as a data scientist, what are the main advantages of implementing it for me?
What about analysts and data engineers? Why should they care about it?
We have a chapter that goes into depth both about the people/process as well as the culture, but in short, governance needs to be a well thought out program with strategic process. That doesn’t mean that it has to be super complicated and require an inordinate amount of headcount, but it DOES need to be intentional. And part of being intentional is to define who does what. Not only does this help to ensure tasks are done, but it also gives shared responsibility and ownership. When someone has ownership of a task they are far more likely to see how they personally benefit from it. And it should probably go without saying, but as stated above: a gov program is not just about securing data - it’s also about making it useful - and any user of data (analyst, scientist, engineer..) wants to have data that is useful!
And another one - who should actually be driving it? Analysts, data engineers, or data product managers?
oof! Loaded question 😉 we go into more depth in the book but I will say that it shouldn’t be one group - it should be bottom up, top down, and part of a company culture.
I have an even more loaded follow up - how to make it a part of company culture? 🙂
More loaded indeed! Well, one of the things we’ve seen work well is an actual intention to make it part of company culture. So things like setting up an intentional strategy, defining tasks, designating roles…all that is really important. But the special sauce is really embedding it from the top down and engaging from the bottom up. So what I mean by top down is for there to be intention and focus around doing ongoing training. Now - most will define a gov strategy, do a training, and call it a day. But there needs to be continuous training. And this doesn’t have to be super intense or time consuming - could even be a 1hr training around “new gov tools” or a guest speaker, or even “YIKES! this happened in the news - how do we make sure it doesn’t happen to us”. The point, really, is that it’s even thought of at all and given at least a little bit of focus. And from bottom up I mean that this is where employees need to be engaged; do a training on a topic related to gov they care about or that actually helps them do their jobs better. Don’t just send out the annual click thru and check the box. When you engage the employees they help to facilitate the culture and it becomes symbiotic .
Maybe the last one. Let’s say we implemented it in our organization. How can we measure the effectiveness of it?
Chapter 8 goes into monitoring, specifically, but I think of the key points is that you cannot measure what you haven’t pre-defined. So, a successful gov program needs to be intentional, with specific processes and tasks, and people who will do them (note: this doesn’t mean complicated) - when you have mapped out your strategy you can then track it over time. So, you defined these tasks - are they getting done? Let’s say part of your strategy was to only keep PII data in one particular storage location - is it? In short, the way that you define your strategy will help to inform what you’ll need to measure in order to know how it’s going.
Not sure if you’re still taking questions, but if so: do you think data governance has generally deteriorated in recent years? Or perhaps is taken less seriously?
I certainly don’t get that sense. For the past 3yrs I have talked to many, many different organizations about their data management and data governance strategies/programs/needs and it seems that it’s only becoming MORE top of mind as not only there are increasingly stricter regulations to comply with but also the amount of data companies now collect is higher. And the reason to collect that data is to derive insights from it which organizations know cannot be done (or at least done well) without some sort of governance process in place.