Career choices, transitions and promotions in and out of tech

Alexey We have a special guest today, Agita. She has done a lot in her career, including work in DevOps, DataOps, data engineering, management, community building, education, and facilitation, among other things. I’m sure that’s not even the full list!: She has experience in corporate environments, startups, open-source projects, and non-governmental sectors. She also founded an NGO focused on integrating expats and locals in Porto. (0.0)

Alexey We have a special guest today, Agita. She has done a lot in her career, including work in DevOps, DataOps, data engineering, management, community building, education, and facilitation, among other things. I’m sure that’s not even the full list!: Agita and I first connected a while back when she was at VMware. Later, we met in Porto during the Data Makers Fest. We even hosted a DataTalks.Club dinner, and our chat there was so interesting that I knew she had to be a guest on this podcast. Finally, here she is! Welcome, Agita. (0.0)

Agita: Thank you! It’s great to be here. (2:36)

Alexey: The questions for today’s interview were prepared by Johanna Bayer. Thank you, Johanna! Let’s dive in. (2:39)

Alexey: Before we get into the main topics like career transitions, promotions, and moving in and out of tech, can you start by telling us about your career journey so far? (2:39)

Career journey and early experiences

Agita: Sure. To make sense of it all, I created a little chronological timeline for myself. (3:02)

Agita: After ninth grade, I went to trade school to study art and web design. I quickly realized I wasn’t very good at art, but during that time, I had my first experience with programming. That’s when I discovered I had a knack for it. (3:02)

Agita: After finishing trade school, I couldn’t find a job as a designer, especially since I wasn’t particularly skilled at it. So, I worked as a waitress in Riga, Latvia, for a couple of years. At some point, I decided to pursue a bachelor’s degree in computer science, which felt like a spontaneous but exciting decision. (3:02)

Alexey: Was the trade school at a bachelor’s level? (4:13)

Agita: No, it wasn’t. It was a vocational school. I completed my 12th-grade exams and earned a professional education in web design alongside them. (4:15)

Agita: For my bachelor’s, I moved to another city and studied computer science. I loved it. After graduating, I joined a boot camp at Accenture, focusing on C++. C++ was my favorite language because I had an amazing teacher who significantly impacted my learning and career. (4:15)

Agita: At the boot camp, I was the only woman among 22 participants. Of those, six were selected for internships, and I was one of them. That’s how I got into Accenture. (4:15)

Alexey: Was your first project in C++? (5:19)

Transition to DevOps and automation

Agita: Actually, no. My first project was in Python, which felt easier in comparison. I worked as an intern for Nokia for six months, but then Nokia experienced major financial challenges and shut down the project. (5:22)

Agita: This meant that the 60 people involved were reassigned. All the interns, including me, were moved to a newly emerging area called DevOps. At the time, it was still referred to as configuration management. (5:22)

Agita: We were a small team working in what felt like a basement, automating tasks. DevOps was still in its infancy, but within a couple of years, it grew significantly. By then, we had our own office and a team of over 100 people. (5:22)

I worked on two main projects during that time. The first earned me a promotion, and the second involved four years of extensive travel to Germany. I worked on-site every Monday through Thursday. My responsibilities grew to include leading a team, supporting project managers, and working closely with clients.: Eventually, I burned out. Despite an offer for another promotion, I couldn’t continue. I realized no amount of money could convince me to stay. (6:17)

I worked on two main projects during that time. The first earned me a promotion, and the second involved four years of extensive travel to Germany. I worked on-site every Monday through Thursday. My responsibilities grew to include leading a team, supporting project managers, and working closely with clients.: To recover, I went on a self-discovery journey to Bulgaria. There, I volunteered for Erasmus Plus, which was my first introduction to that program and the world of facilitation. (6:17)

Erasmus Plus and volunteering in Bulgaria

Alexey: What is Erasmus Plus? Is it like a master’s degree program? (7:32)

Agita: Not exactly. Erasmus Plus is a program for young people to travel and engage in educational activities. These trips are typically shorter around 10 days and focus on learning and cultural exchange. (7:36)

Alexey: It's not really a big thing. (7:49)

Agita: No, it's not long. Usually, it's something very short. (7:52)

Alexey: There are many Erasmus programs. The usual Erasmus is when you're doing your Bachelor’s, and you can spend a semester abroad. Then there’s Erasmus Mundus, which I participated in. It’s more like a master’s program where you study in multiple universities. Now there’s also Erasmus Plus, and I’ve heard of other Erasmus initiatives as well. (7:57)

Agita: Yes, there are many. I don’t even know all of them. For sure, there are youth exchanges for younger people, training courses for educators, and volunteering programs where you can help on-site for a month. I discovered this just as I was turning 30, which is the age limit for many of these opportunities. I found out just in time to join. (8:18)

Agita: I spent a year volunteering, coordinating Erasmus Plus projects. After that, I continued volunteering and stayed in Bulgaria. I’m not even sure where my money was coming from during that time. Looking back, I lived quite comfortably for three years, all while volunteering. I just couldn’t make myself return to IT or any other job. (8:18)

Alexey: So, you’re not sure how you managed to survive financially during those years? (9:09)

How Agita navigated financial uncertainty during her volunteering years

Agita: There was always money somehow. (9:15)

Alexey: I wish that were always the case! (9:17)

Agita: At some point, my friends offered me a job as a community manager at a co-working space called Networking Premium. That experience was really important for my CV. It later helped me land a position with VMware. (9:20)

Agita: VMware was looking for someone with a technical background and community management experience. They found me while I was planning to move to Portugal. They managed to hire me there, and I worked on an open-source project called Versatile Data Kit. My role involved community management, traveling for conferences, and more. (9:20)

Agita: Eventually, VMware was sold, and they let go of everyone working in Portugalit was just a team of eight people. Honestly, getting laid off was the perfect scenario for me. (9:20)

Agita: While working there, I also became a certified facilitator and started facilitating Erasmus Plus projects during my free time. After I was let go in March, I opened an NGO focused on inclusion through Erasmus Plus projects and began working on local initiatives in Porto. In January, I’m starting a mentorship program for teenagers aged 10 to 16 to help them with career choices. (9:20)

From community manager to VMware and starting an NGO

Alexey: Your story is amazing and inspiring. While listening, I was thinking of different titles for this interview. Maybe "From Waitress to DevOps Lead" or "From Waitress to Community Manager"? But it’s hard to pick because you’ve done so many different things. You seem to really enjoy volunteering with Erasmus Plus. You’re still involved with it, right? (11:23)

Agita: Yes, I’m still doing it because it feels natural. I often test things to see if I’m good at them. For example, I tried art and found it wasn’t for me, but programming was. Facilitation seems to be a good fit too, as people keep inviting me to do it. I base my journey on where the energy feels right. (11:57)

Alexey: What do you mean by “where the energy feels right”? How do you test that? (12:29)

Finding the right fit: Testing passions and "flow"

Agita: It’s simple. I ask myself, do I like this? Am I good at it? If the answer is yes, I’ll enjoy doing it. If time flies while I’m working on something, that’s a sign it’s the right thing for me. (12:41)

Alexey: That sounds like being in the flow. (13:08)

Agita: Yes, exactly. There’s a whole theory about flow. (13:12)

Alexey: But you’re not always good at something when you first start, right? (13:15)

Agita: True, but sometimes I surprise myself. For example, when I started programming, I discovered I had a natural aptitude for it. I remember my teacher gave us a task to calculate something and left the room, saying whoever solved it would get the highest grade. I was the only one who figured it out. That’s when I realized I was good at programming. (13:21)

Alexey: What kind of problem was it? (13:58)

Agita: It was simple: we had to calculate a sequence of numbers and find the 1,000th term. It required writing a basic loop. While it wasn’t difficult, I was the only one who solved it. (14:00)

Alexey: That’s impressive! (14:26)

Alexey: Speaking of your LinkedIn, you mentioned automating yourself out of a project and getting a promotion for it. Can you share more about that? (14:29)

Automating repetitive tasks and receiving a promotion

Agita: Sure. My first project at Accenture involved a repetitive task. On my first day, they gave me seven printed pages of instructions for migrating files updating some, testing others on Linux and Windows, and so on. (15:02)

Agita: For the first two days, I followed the instructions manually. By the end of the week, I realized how repetitive it was and how prone it was to human error. For example, copying and renaming folders could easily go wrong. I thought, “This can be automated.” (15:02)

Agita: It took some time to write the automation scripts, which made me fall behind initially. But once everything was automated, the process became error-free and efficient. Piece by piece, I automated the entire workflow. If something can be written as instructions on paper, it can usually be written as code. (15:02)

Alexey: Did they expect you to automate the process? (16:44)

Agita: Not at all. By the end of three months, the whole process was automated. It was surprising for everyone, but it worked perfectly! (16:45)

Alexey: Your first job... (16:49)

Agita: Yeah, my first position was like a junior engineer or something similar. (16:50)

Agita: Exactly, it was like getting a foot in the door. I think there were projects where people were doing repetitive daily tasks. After about three months, I had automated most of it and had nothing left to do. The team was impressed and decided to keep me on for another month, but there was still nothing left to fix or improve. (16:54)

Agita: They had a performance evaluation system where you set your own goals and then got evaluated. I received an "above expectations" rating for every criterion. Typically, promotions came after at least a year of work, but in my case, it took only five months. The technical lead even wrote to my career counselor to ensure I completed some learning tasks before officially getting promoted. So, less than a year in, I was already promoted. (16:54)

Alexey: When you mentioned spring migration, it gave me flashbacks. I used to be a Java developer, and back then, we didn’t have support engineers to automate things like this. I had to handle it myself. Did you work with Java too? (18:11)

Agita: Not really. I never properly learned Java. I find it very difficult. I even tried taking a course in Java during that project, but it just wasn’t for me. Instead, I used scripts and tools that didn’t require me to actually write Java code. I didn’t need to know the language to work on the project. (18:35)

Problem-solving in DevOps and transferable skills

Alexey: As a DevOps engineer or platform engineer, do you think it’s necessary to know the programming language used in the systems you support? (19:00)

Agita: Not at all. Sometimes I didn’t even know the language a tool or framework was built with. At one point, I worked with Ruby and had to learn it on the go. As you said, after learning C++, everything else seems possible. Once you understand the fundamentals, you can use any language or tool to solve problems. I realized that my core skill is problem-solving, and the tools or languages are just means to achieve the goal. (19:16)

Alexey: Problem-solving is often listed as a required skill in job descriptions, but what does it really mean? How can someone prove they are a good problem solver? (20:03)

Agita: That’s a good question. For me, I enjoy challenges, which might explain why I solve problems effectively. (20:22)

Alexey: So you see problems more as challenges than as actual problems? (20:35)

Agita: Exactly. (20:39)

Alexey: You mentioned burning out in DevOps and deciding you couldn’t do it anymore, no matter the money. Then you turned to volunteering. What skills from your DevOps experience were most useful during that transition? (20:41)

Transitioning from DevOps to NGO work

Agita: My corporate experience, in general, taught me professionalism, understanding processes, and the importance of documentation. In NGOs, people often work chaotically without structured processes. (21:03)

Agita: When I joined an NGO, I introduced systems like ticketing, documentation, and agile processes. These organizational skillslike retrospectives, planning, and problem-solvingare incredibly valuable in any context. (21:03)

Alexey: So, essentially, you applied your organizational and project management skills to structure and solve problems. (21:59)

Agita: Exactly. For example, I joined the Open Bulgaria project, which was completely new and volunteer-based. We created a website for foreigners living or moving to Bulgaria. I used all my skills to establish a sustainable system for managing the project, from volunteers writing articles to creating workflows. (22:15)

Alexey: Were these projects mostly technical, or did they involve other types of work? (23:00)

Agita: It was a mix. For example, while I wasn’t directly programming, I worked with a team to manage and support content creation. (23:11)

Alexey: Managing volunteers is different from managing employees, isn’t it? (23:28)

Agita: Yes, very different. Volunteers don’t have to be there, so it’s all about motivation. You need to inspire them to believe in the project and dedicate their free time to it. Open source projects are similarthey rely entirely on motivated volunteers. (23:55)

Alexey: When managing volunteers, you’re not really their "manager," right? (24:37)

Agita: Exactly. It’s more about providing structure. Volunteers pick tasks at their own pace, complete them, and then an editor or reviewer checks their work. The key is to create a smooth process. (24:49)

Transitioning to volunteer roles and spotting opportunities

Alexey: If someone wanted to transition to a volunteer role, like you did, how would they go about it? (25:07)

Agita: For me, it was about recognizing opportunities. I found the NGO role through an expat group. I tend to spot opportunities and act on them. It’s about being open to possibilities and trusting your intuition. (25:20)

Alexey: You mentioned personality types. Are those the four-letter codes like introvert/extrovert and so on? (26:19)

Agita: Yes, those are based on traits like introversion, extroversion, sensing, feeling, and so on. (26:35)

Alexey: Do you think knowing your personality type is helpful? (26:43)

Agita: Yes, it can be. Some companies even use personality typing to build balanced teams. For example, combining introverts and extroverts can improve team dynamics. Knowing your personality type also fosters self-awareness, which is always valuable. (26:50)

Alexey: For me, personality tests feel more like a fun activity. We once did this during a team-building event, but I didn’t see any practical changes afterward. (27:45)

Agita: It might not change much directly, but it can build empathy. It helps you understand that not everyone thinks or operates the same way you do. For example, I’m very spontaneous, but I’ve learned to respect people who prefer detailed planning. (28:45)

Alexey: You wrote an article about the personality traits best suited for data engineering. What are those traits? (29:42)

Agita: From my experience, data engineers need to be detail-oriented, persistent, and precise. They must enjoy working with data to uncover insights and make decisions. (29:53)

Agita: Personally, I’m more intuitive and spontaneous, so I don’t excel in roles requiring high levels of precision. For example, when I worked on community statistics, I loved creating charts and seeing the results. But if something wasn’t working, I struggled to go back and fix it. Persistence and attention to detail are crucial for data engineering. (29:53)

Alexey: It sounds like you enjoy creating something new, but maintaining it is less enjoyable for you. (31:52)

Agita: Absolutely not enjoyable. It's just a pain. (31:58)

Alexey: There are people who feel the opposite way, though. (32:02)

Agita: Yes, definitely. Some people truly enjoy perfecting systems. They love creating systems that function seamlessly, covering every detail that might be necessary. They aim for perfection, and their perfectionism can be a huge asset to a team. When someone is naturally detail-oriented and driven, they bring incredible value. (32:06)

Alexey: Would you say that a back-end engineer working in Java or Python and a data engineer need different personality types for their work? Or is personality not that crucial? (32:41)

Agita: Maybe it's not as important, but I think there are differences. Engineers often share similar traits, but the key difference lies in their interests. What excites them? What do they spend their free time exploring? (33:00)

Agita: For instance, I had a friend at Accenture who spent his workday programming, then went home and researched IT security conferences. It was clear that he was deeply passionate about security. When someone dedicates their free time to something like this, it signals their potential to excel in that area. (33:00)

Alexey: That makes sense. I’ve been reflecting on my own career while discussing this. I started as a Java developer and then transitioned to data science. However, I never fully embraced the analytical side of data science. (34:00)

Alexey: Many data scientists love analyzing data, experimenting, and building the best models. For me, the engineering side was more appealing. Even though I had the title of data scientist, I didn’t enjoy digging into data or optimizing models. I was more interested in figuring out how to deploy and integrate them. Maybe it’s because my personality leans more toward engineering than research. (34:00)

The difference between data scientists and engineers

Agita: That aligns with what I’ve read. There are two types of people in these roles. One type is logical and opportunistic they see opportunities and know where to apply solutions. The other type is more rational and analytical, diving deep into data and analysis. (34:52)

Agita: Both types can excel in data engineering or similar fields. When I wrote my article about this, I actually asked my colleagues to take a personality test. Most of them fit into one of these two categories. My observations and the article were based on real experiences working with a data engineering team and a development team. (34:52)

Alexey: This was during your time at VMware as a community manager, right? (35:51)

Agita: Yes, exactly. I loved working with those people. (35:55)

Alexey: After VMware, where you worked as a community manager, there was a gap of about three years when you focused on volunteering. Was it difficult to return to the corporate world after that? (36:00)

Agita: Not really. I had set criteria for myselfI’d only take a role if it was open source. Luckily, the project that hired me was open source. They onboarded me into a role that involved both community work and technical contributions. (36:25)

Agita: I realized that while I’m technically skilled, I enjoy working with people even more. Managing teams, solving people-related problems, and building communities are much more fulfilling for me. My transition back into a corporate environment felt natural and aligned with my interests. (36:25)

Alexey: What does being a community manager entail? I consider myself one as well, but it seems like the role can vary a lot. Two people might have the same title but completely different responsibilities. (37:36)

Agita: That’s true. (37:59)

Alexey: What did your role as a community manager involve? (38:00)

The role of a community manager

Agita: A big part of it was social media, which I didn’t expect. When I think about community management, I imagine bringing people together, fostering team-building, and improving communication. (38:05)

Agita: But in practice, a lot of my work involved creating content for LinkedIn, Twitter, Meetup, and Facebook. I also wrote blogs and hosted monthly YouTube community meetings. Communication was key, but content creation dominated the role. (38:05)

Alexey: It sounds similar to a developer relations position. (39:14)

Agita: Exactly. A guest once told me that what I was doing aligned with developer relations (DevRel). She even suggested that I should pursue a DevRel role because it might come with a better salary. (39:19)

Alexey: So it was less about community building and more about marketing activities to promote the open-source project, right? (40:07)

Agita: Yes, but there were still community interactions. For example, I participated in community meetings, spoke at conferences, and facilitated on-site team-building sessions. (40:23)

Agita: One of my favorite experiences was leading a goal-setting process with my team. At one point, we realized that we were adding too many features to our product, making it hard to use. We had to refocus and simplify. (40:23)

Agita: During this process, we aligned on a vision: we wanted the product to feel "easy." It was incredibly rewarding to guide the team through this and see how it brought clarity to our work. (40:23)

Alexey: I think this is more for comparison. I also prefer to call myself a community manager. It mostly involves organizing things, like what we’re doing right now. Even though Hanna prepared the questions, I reached out to her and set up the date. It’s about organizing different activities in the community, courses, and similar events. I wouldn’t call it product or project management, though. It's more about bringing together a group of people who are interested in doing various things. The goal is to figure out how we can engage them and create activities they enjoy. (41:26)

Agita: Exactly. I think people want to be together and to do things together. When those activities are meaningful, they attract more people. In my NGO, I’m also realizing that it’s just a great excuse to come together and accomplish something. (42:10)

Alexey: Tell us more about that. What are you doing in your NGO? How did this decision come about? Was it in May or March when VMware made the decision to let you go? Now it's December, so what happened? How did you decide to start an NGO, and why this particular type of NGO and activity? (42:35)

Starting an NGO focused on inclusion and gender equality

Agita: Starting an NGO is not easy, at least not in Portugal. I’m not sure how it works in other countries, but you need at least nine people. It didn’t really start in March. I had already been doing a career coaching course for about two years, but with a friend. We were facilitating these two-day courses, guiding people through processes and methods to help them align their careers with who they are. The course was called "Align Your Career With Who You Are." We used specific methods and tools to help people understand their next steps by the end of the two days. (43:04)

Alexey: Were you learning how to be a career coach, or were you being coached by someone? (43:34)

Agita: I was leading the course with this guest therapist, the same person I mentioned earlier. We were facilitating people through a process to help them understand their career moves. The idea was to help people align their careers with their passions, skills, and energy flow. (43:41)

Alexey: So, if I had just graduated, had no idea what to do, and my parents were telling me to either study medicine or go into IT, but neither option felt right, would this kind of course help me figure out what to do? (44:22)

Agita: Yes, that’s the best-case scenario. People sometimes join the course when they’re burned out or hate their current job. Others join when they’re ready for a career change because they can’t continue the way things are. In the course, we met several people who shared similar goals. We were all interested in inclusion, Erasmus+ projects, and event creation. Gradually, we formed a little community. It wasn’t intentionality that just happened. We met these nine people and wanted to do something bigger. (44:41)

Alexey: How did the decision to start an NGO come about? (44:57)

Agita: In May, we went through the process of establishing the NGO. We needed to get a Portuguese person who understood the legal aspects of starting an NGO. We also had to find people willing to take on roles like treasurer and president. It was a lot of work, and the preparation was difficult. It took about six months to go through all the paperwork and write the regulations. But now, it’s all done. The process began when we met people at different events we were involved in, like the ones I did with Julia, the girl I’m working with. (45:04)

Alexey: So, your NGO focuses on gender equality. What does "inclusion" mean in your context? Is it about making expats feel more included? (46:43)

Agita: Yes, exactly. In Portugal, I’ve noticed there’s a divide. Expats tend to hang out only with other expats, and it’s difficult to meet locals. I think that happens in many countries. (46:52)

Alexey: I can relate to that. In Germany, I mostly hang out in my own bubble, and it usually doesn’t include Germans. (47:08)

Agita: Exactly! That’s the case here too. We want to create events or spaces where locals can join and meet expats. There’s a stereotype that foreigners drive up apartment prices by renting expensive places, so they’re often seen as the "bad guys." But when you get to know people, you realize their motivations. Every person here contributes something valuable to the community. Communication between locals and expats is essential to improve mutual understanding. (47:18)

Alexey: So that’s inclusion. And the last part was sustainability? (48:10)

Agita: Yes, sustainability is part of our plan, but we’re not doing much with it yet. We’re still figuring out how it will evolve. (48:14)

Alexey: What does it look like in practical terms? If I were an expat and came across your community in Porto, what would I get from it? (48:24)

Agita: You can join an event through Meetup. If you like it, you can stick around and become a member. We’re currently recruiting assembly members, not board members, but people who will help us make decisions about the direction of the NGO. (48:38)

Alexey: What kind of activities do you do at the meetups? (49:09)

Agita: We do all sorts of things. Each of us has a different skill set. One person does improv theater, another is from the US and teaches MBTI and storytelling. I focus on community building. We each lead different events, and that’s how we offer a variety of activities. (49:12)

Alexey: What is MBTI? (49:29)

Agita: MBTI stands for the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. It’s a personality typing system based on 16 personality types. (49:32)

Alexey: So, it’s similar to the four-letter personality types we talked about before? (49:36)

Agita: Yes, exactly. Then there’s another person who does guest-style theater. We just offer these events, and if people like them, they stick around. (49:40)

Alexey: So, when I attend, do people announce their skills and interests? (49:57)

Agita: Exactly. When there’s something interesting happening, people want to stick around. That’s how we grew from two to nine members, and now we’re up to 10, 11, or 12. It’s a physical, local community, so it’s not online at all. (50:05)

Alexey: So it’s not related to IT in any way? (50:35)

Agita: Not at all. (50:41)

Alexey: I imagine many expats are developers, at least in Germany, based on my own bias. If I meet someone from Russia who speaks Russian, they’re often in IT or development. (50:43)

Agita: In my experience, this is the case as well. (51:07)

Alexey: For us, it's easier to move around. All you need is a laptop, right? (51:10)

Agita: I see. (51:16)

Alexey: You mentioned that the image of a foreigner, particularly in IT, is often associated with having a good income. They come to places like Porto, rent expensive apartments, and drive up prices. Locals may not necessarily appreciate that. (51:19)

Agita: Yes, I think it's due to the lack of direct contact. People see the prices rising and assume someone must be responsible for it. (51:40)

Alexey: You don’t live in Porto, right? Do you live outside the city? (51:55)

Agita: Yes, I live a bit outside Porto. (51:59)

Alexey: I’m leading to the story you shared at dinner. (52:04)

Agita: Yes, that’s right. Thanks to VMware and my layoff, I managed to buy a piece of land in a forest. I built a dome there, and I’ve completely moved in. I’ve closed all other options I had in Porto, so I’m now fully living off the grid in the forest. (52:11)

Alexey: So, you're living in the forest now? (52:42)

Agita: Yes, right now, I’m in France because I was worried about the internet connection. But I usually have all my calls from there. (52:44)

Alexey: How is the internet connection usually? (52:53)

Agita: It’s actually fine. I might have been overly cautious about it. It’s better to be safe than sorry, but I usually have no issues with calls. (52:57)

Alexey: Living off the grid means you need to produce your own electricity, get your own water, and manage waste. How do you handle all of that? (53:13)

Agita: Exactly. The electricity part is done with solar panels and batteries. For water, I’m in the process of installing a rainwater collector, which I can filter and use. I’ve also drilled a well, but I need to go through some legal processes for that. (53:27)

Alexey: Sounds like a big project. (54:00)

Agita: Yes, it’s a long-term life project. (54:03)

Alexey: Do you encounter wild animals there? (54:09)

Agita: I’ve seen insects, slugs, and a lizard. I’ve also spotted a snake, but nothing too large. Occasionally, I see a squirrel pass by, but there aren’t many animals around. (54:16)

Alexey: Even in the city, I’ve seen animals. In Berlin, I don’t see lizards, but in France and Italy, they’re everywhere. (54:38)

Agita: Yes, I’ve only seen one lizard. I really like lizards. (54:48)

Alexey: That’s impressive. I remember you mentioned living off the grid at dinner, and I thought, “Wow, that’s brave.” (54:56)

Agita: It’s an experiment. Life is an experiment, and I want to see how it goes. If it doesn’t work, I can always change my mind, sell the property, or upgrade. For now, I’m focused on living with the bare minimum and seeing if I can live comfortably that way. It will be an interesting journey, especially this winter. (55:08)

Alexey: In terms of money, is it cheaper than renting an apartment in Porto? I’ve heard that Porto has become quite expensive. (55:52)

Agita: Yes, Porto is expensive. I was paying around 550 for a room, including everything. Here, I’m paying about 300, though I’m also covering gas, which I would likely be paying for anyway. (56:01)

Alexey: I think we have time for one more question. We haven’t covered everything, but there’s one thing I really wanted to ask. You posted about a “brainstorming party” on LinkedIn. What does that look like? (56:19)

The concept of an "unemployment party"

Agita: It was actually my unemployment party. (56:47)

Alexey: Unemployment party, okay. (56:51)

Agita: Yes, when I got laid off, I realized I needed to apply my own methods to myself. In my course, we usually work with people’s core values and go through six logical levels to help them define their life’s purpose. I also use a mastermind technique where people brainstorm for one person. I told my friends my situation being unemployed, living in a forest, and so on and asked them, “What would you do if you were in my position?” It’s important to phrase it that way because it makes people think from their perspective, and that leads to really helpful ideas. Everyone writes their ideas on sticky notes, and I get a lot of input on possible options. It was incredibly useful, and I ended up facilitating similar mastermind groups afterward. (56:52)

Alexey: That’s amazing. The concept of an unemployment party is so cool! How did you come up with it? It’s not something you just wake up and think, “I want to throw an unemployment party today.” (59:07)

Agita: Well, first, I really was unemployed. I had just quit my job or been laid off. I realized I needed to hear from my trusted friends and get their ideas. I usually create spaces for others to brainstorm, and this time, I needed to apply that to myself. So, I gathered my friends and called it a party. It was a logical sequence: I’m unemployed, I need help, so let’s gather and brainstorm. (59:37)

Alexey: Did you have traditional party aspects, like food? (1:00:31)

Agita: Yes, we had food and drinks. It wasn’t just brainstorming. We sat in a circle, and I shared my whole story from when I first arrived in Porto up until that moment. (1:00:38)

Alexey: I see. We’re running out of time, but it’s been an amazing conversation. Thanks a lot for joining us today, Agita. I really enjoyed talking with you. Next time I’m in Porto, I’ll reach out. If you’re in Berlin, let me know. (1:00:57)

Agita: I didn’t know you were in Berlin! (1:01:27)

Alexey: Yes, I am. Anyway, thanks again for joining us today and sharing your experiences and career choices. Thanks to everyone for listening. Have a great week! (1:01:32)

Agita: Thank you! (1:01:46)

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Career choices, transitions and promotions in and out of tech

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