Season 5, episode 5 of the DataTalks.Club podcast with Mihail Eric
Alexey: This week, we'll talk about machine learning researchers and machine learning engineers. We will also talk about what they can learn from each other. We have a special guest today, Mihail. Mihail is a double founder – he's a founder of a machine learning consultancy company that helps with solving tough business problems. He's also founder of Confetti.ai, which is an educational platform for learning data science and engineering. Before that, Mihail worked as a senior machine learning scientist at Amazon Alexa. Welcome. (1:17)
Mihail: Thank you. It's really great to be here. I'm a huge fan of your work Alexey, and also DataTalks.Club. I’m really happy to be here. (1:52)
Alexey: Thanks for your kind words. Before we go into our main topic of machine learning researchers and machine learning engineers, let's start with your background. Can you tell us a few words about your career journey so far? (2:00)
Mihail: Sure. I've been in machine learning for about close to a decade now. My entry point into machine learning was more from the academic standpoint. I studied neuroscience and AI at Stanford. In addition to just ordinary coursework that I did while I was there, I had the really great pleasure and fortune of working in the NLP group. I worked with a lot of the really big names in NLP in the world, including Chris Manning, Zhilin Yang, Chris Potts, and Dan Jurafsky. (2:14)
Mihail: One of the first real entry points in the machine learning research that I had was actually helping to lead up projects in collaboration with Ford, the big car automaker, where we were investigating new methods and primarily neural network-based techniques to conversational systems. We were building a lot of new architectures and building on new data sets and resources to really tackle this problem of deep learning for conversational systems.
Mihail: After Stanford, I joined a self-driving car startup in San Francisco called rideOS. I was there as one of the very early employees and got to get that first taste of what startup life is like. The focus of the company was actually a lot more on building a real-time data platform for optimizing and coordinating the movements of fleets of vehicles on the road. It was fundamentally a problem about engineering and how we can do things very efficiently.
Mihail: I was there for a while and when I left, I actually went to help start a new team at Amazon Alexa, which I've often described as a bit like a Google brain-esque effort within Alexa. It was similar in that the charter of the team was to kind of sit at this intersection between research and engineering. We did a lot of thinking about what research in conversational systems looks like today and how we can contribute to the research. But we were also constantly thinking about “How can a lot of these advances make their way into the Alexa platform?” and “How can we do that effectively so that we can deliver customer value?” So really, that was this nice hybrid of both the engineering and the research that came together in this nice way while I was there.
Mihail: Then, along the way, as you described, I've always been interested in education – building tools and platforms to help people learn things – Confetti being the most recent example of that. Nowadays, I'm doing a lot of consulting and working with a lot of companies across different verticals to help them solve their toughest business problems using data-driven and machine learning techniques.
Alexey: That's pretty cool. You worked at Stanford in the NLP group, and then you went to a self-driving company. I'm wondering, what does NLP have in common with self-driving? How did you convince them to actually hire you? (5:00)
Mihail: That's a question that they would maybe have to answer themselves. [laughs] How they picked me, I don't know. But from a problem domain standpoint, I think you're right. There doesn't seem to be as much overlap, in some ways. I would agree that fundamentally, they're very different problems. Though, I would say that, when you think of self-driving compared to NLP – the difficulty of the problems – they do have very similar characteristics. They're both very long tail problems, where a lot of the complexity comes in everything that happens after you have achieved 80% accuracy. I think that in NLP, as in self-driving vehicles, we can do pretty well on 80% of the phenomena. But really, the hardest part is everything that happens at that long tail. So those characteristics make them very similar. (5:19)
Mihail: But I think that for me, a lot of what drew me to going into this particular company was that the team was just really phenomenal. It was a very high-performance engineering team of people that had built a lot of amazing systems at Uber, Tesla, Apple, and a lot of different companies. I'm sure we'll get into this, but a lot of what I've been thinking about coming out of research was, “How do I become a better engineer?” So I felt like I should just throw myself into some really hard engineering problems and work with some really good engineers to become a better engineer myself. That was a lot of the motivation there.
Alexey: Was that your biggest problem when you were transitioning from academia to the industry world? Was it the engineering aspects, or was it something else? (6:46)
Mihail: Yes, that's right. I think that when I was at Stanford, we were solving a lot of interesting problems. We did a lot of interesting research that I'm really happy with. But a lot of the time, when I was working on things, I felt that my engineering chops were maybe not at the level where I felt that I was doing things as effectively as efficiently as I could. There was an element of, you're doing things and you're building things, but maybe at times, even as I was setting up some infrastructure, I felt like I was kind of fumbling through it a little bit. It's not just that the code wasn't the cleanest – research code tends not to be the cleanest, at least it’s not known to be. That's maybe not appealing from an aesthetic standpoint. (6:57)
Mihail: But I think that the bigger problem for me was… I'm a very relentless optimizer in terms of time. I like to do things very efficiently and effectively. When I see that there are maybe deficiencies in how I’m doing something, I think, “Okay, I need to spend the time to really build out that foundation and get better in those engineering aspects.” And I start to ask myself these questions, “Okay, how do I go from a proof of concept model to something that can interact with tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people in a scalable way?” That's something that you don't really get to see in research too often, because those aren’t really the problems that researchers think about. So making that transition from a very research-minded way of thinking about things to “Hey, build something that works and is robust.” That was really one of the bigger challenges.
Alexey: You mentioned, you were setting some infra as a researcher. I think that's quite uncommon for a researcher to set up infra to begin with, right? (8:34)
Mihail: Yeah, that's right. I mean, when I say infra, it's probably not infra in the most robust sense. Even just standing up web services and if you're setting up an annotation task and you have to interface with Amazon Mechanical Turk – or you have to do any of these things. We were collecting audio data and being able to stream audio data over the web was difficult at times. Eventually, it got done and it worked. But it was not the cleanest and prettiest thing when it did work. So we thought “There's got to be a better way than this.” (8:45)
Alexey: So you first worked as a researcher. Then you worked more as an engineer in the self-driving startup. Then you joined Amazon to work in a more hybrid role – your official position was ML researcher – is that right? (9:21)
Mihail: Yeah, it was a scientist by title. ‘Scientist’ at Amazon can mean a lot of things. I mean, there are scientists that really focus primarily on engineering, and there are scientists that are literally just researchers. My role was set up in such a way that there was a lot of flexibility in the stuff that I was working on, especially because it was a new team. It was literally just my manager and I when it was started. Almost by necessity, I had to do a lot more engineering. Because when we started, there were just two of us. By the time I left, there were maybe 20 or so people in the team. A lot of the engineering, setting up of infrastructure, setting up the codebases, and all these things, kind of fell on me by default. Although I liked that – I did actually like doing those things. Because of my prior experience in engineering, I thought, “Well, this is super fun anyway. Research is fun, but this is also fun.” So fundamentally, I ended up doing a lot of both. I wrote a lot of papers, but I also built systems that found their way into the Alexa platform. (9:36)
Alexey: Yeah, that's pretty cool. So you basically managed to be in both worlds. You saw how things are done from the researcher’s point of view and how things are done from the engineering point of view. Then at Amazon, you were doing both. Right? (10:34)
Mihail: That’s right. (10:51)
Alexey: Maybe you can tell us what machine learning researchers actually do. What kind of problems do they solve? What do they use for solving these problems? (10:52)
Mihail: Absolutely, yes. Machine learning researchers tend to focus a lot more on open-ended problems. These are open-ended problems from a scientific standpoint. There's a way of thinking about things where you don't really know if something is going to work, right? Researchers tend to be very hypothesis-driven. They will look at something and say, “Alright, how can I improve this through some modeling advancement or some architectural change or something like that? How can I do that?” And a lot of it does tend to be driven by hypothesis. So you don't know if it's going to work upfront, but you run experiments deliberately and methodically to try and validate those hypotheses. There's a lot of reading of papers, seeing what other people are doing, and then writing the papers when you maybe discover something interesting. (11:01)
Mihail: I think as far as tooling is concerned, a lot of the tools that researchers in machine learning primarily use, are ones that enable really fast prototyping, or really fast validating or invalidating hypotheses. A lot of the usual suspects come up – things like Jupyter-hub notebooks, they come up a lot, tools and platforms, like weights and biases – things that allow you to keep a very detailed experimental log that allows you to invalidate or confirm your hypotheses.
Mihail: Hypotheses and open-ended problems
Alexey: Can you think of an example of such a hypothesis? Like what it could be – an open-ended scientific problem? (12:20)
Mihail: Yeah, absolutely. The nature of machine learning research today is a lot about benchmarks. There are benchmark datasets and things like leaderboards, in some cases. There are formal leader boards that come up. But really, there's some community agreed-upon dataset that people are trying to improve. (12:27)
Alexey: Like ImageNet? (12:49)
Mihail: ImageNet is a good one for computer vision. You can also think of something like Squad in the case of question answering for NLP. There are so many. But that's really how machine learning research has evolved, by centering around these different benchmarks. It's a way of standardizing and making sure that everyone's talking in the same language in some sense. You can imagine that when you're trying to improve the performance on these datasets, sometimes even just by really, really small amounts, you might say, “Okay, this model uses this one particular kind of architecture. What if I use a special kind of cross-attention between maybe the encoder and the decoder of something? Does that allow me to maybe propagate some information from the encoder to the decoder so that downstream I have an increase in performance?” So you might try that. You might build your model in such a way that you try and capture some of that signal and then see if it works. It's a lot of thinking-through about these different architectures. (12:50)
Alexey: So if it works, you publish your paper. And if it doesn't, what happens then? (13:49)
Mihail: Well, then when you're back to square one. Then you're back to the drawing board for a lot of the time split. But I think that it doesn't always just have to be squeezing out half a percentage point by getting that perfect architecture. There are some papers that I've written in the past where we were just showing that you can use great simple things to do comparably as well as much more difficult architectures. There's even a line of work that's about “How do I reduce the complexity of something without giving up on performance?” That can be reducing complexity in terms of the architecture or reducing complexity in terms of the model size or anything like that. But yeah – fundamentally, if you can squeeze out percentage points of improvements and you write a good story, that ends up being a paper most of the time. (13:54)
Alexey: Where do these open-ended questions come from? Do you have to come up with them yourself? Does your professor tell you about them or you work with companies from the industry to find them? How do you come up with these problems? (14:45)
Mihail: There are different ways of doing that, I think. In the early parts of every researcher’s career, I think it's always very common to start by just serving what's out in a field. Nowadays, a lot of researchers have done good jobs of literally producing survey papers where they talk about the high-level problems that a certain field is talking about. They'll include all the relevant citations. If you read these surveys, especially early in my research career, you just do what is effectively like depth-first search through the citation landscape, right? Where you're like, “Okay, here's the paper. Here are a bunch of links. I understand this. I don't understand this. Okay, but this links to something else.” And you just kind of go down this rabbit hole of “How are people thinking about problems?” And “What have they thought about before?” (15:04)
Mihail: If you do this enough, and then you keep kind of going down this rabbit hole, eventually you get a really good sense for “What's the state of the art look like today?” Sometimes you'll discover that something that you're hypothesizing or thinking about that doesn't yet exist. Or maybe you'll see that someone sort of thought about something similar in the past, but they maybe never fleshed out this one particular detail. So then you think, “What if I combine what I'm thinking of with what they're thinking of. Can there be something new to come out of this?”
Alexey: Like this ‘future work section’? (16:24)
Mihail: Exactly. Future work section – a lot of the time. I think that's one fantastic aspect of research. If you go right down to the end of a paper, typically, they'll have the conclusion and they'll have like three or four open questions. They'll just say something like, “Hey, we did really awesome work. But there are a few things we're not so sure about. So maybe you guys can think about this in the future.” That's actually a good place to find motivation as well. But then, also, depending on how the researchers that you're working with are – they can also just give you ideas. Especially early in researchers’ careers, a lot of professors will have their own agendas and kind of a broad class of things that they're thinking about. So they're happy to share that. Because that's why they hired you, right? In some sense, it was to pursue a lot of their own research questions. (16:26)
Alexey: So, you're there on your own. Maybe there are some tips coming from your supervisor – from the professor – but you're doing this breadth-first search yourself, right? You're reading these papers. You're trying to have a picture in your mind, “What is the state of the art?” It's all on you, so you have a lot of independence there. (17:10)
Mihail: It’s a blessing and a curse, for sure. (17:32)
Alexey: You did this for some time, and then you joined this self-driving startup and you worked as an engineer. What do machine learning engineers do? What kind of problems do they solve and what do they use to do that? (17:35)
Mihail: Unlike the sort of open-ended questions that researchers tend to think about, machine learning engineers tend to be more focused on the full machine learning lifecycle. Whereas a researcher might train a model, and their work is done. They might say, “Okay, I have my pickle file. I have my binary whatever. That's it.” And maybe “I've confirmed and validated a hypothesis.” An engineer is really responsible for going to the next step and saying, “Okay, now that I have the model, how do I handle all the other aspects of making a fully-fledged system that uses machine learning?” (17:53)
Mihail: That systematic aspect has a lot of things that fall under the curve, including deployments, “How do I scalably deploy something? How do I make sure that there's uptime? How do I monitor that something is working all the time?” A lot of it really does have to do with those engineering aspects. With a machine learning engineer, of course, there's engineering that's involved in that. But I think that in some sense, the way the field has progressed, the machine learning aspect of it has actually become an even smaller part of the role. Nowadays, you might only have to use 20% of your time on machine learning, if even that, and really 80% of the heavy lifting is the engineering.
Mihail: So when I think about tooling that falls into an ML engineer’s toolkit, there are some of the usual suspects around modeling. You're almost certainly going to be using PyTorch or TensorFlow, or some high level modeling library. But a lot of your toolkit is also going to involve these more traditional engineering tools like Docker to help with reproducibility. Or you have to be very comfortable with the cloud provider in order to deal with cloud infrastructure, whether that's AWS or GCP, or Azure, or whatever. Then you also have to be very comfortable with a web framework – something like FastAPI or Flask, depending on the language that you use for your backend services. So it's really this combination of some machine learning. Maybe not as much now as it was before, but then a lot of engineering.
Alexey: Okay. So researchers ask themselves open-ended questions. They come up with hypotheses, they test them, and then maybe if it works out, they come up with a better architecture. They have this pickle model file, or PyTorch model file, or whatever file. I don't know about University, but if it happens in a company, they can go to their fellow machine learning engineers – their colleagues – and say, “Okay, we have this file, now let’s figure out how to actually deploy this.” Is that right? (19:51)
Mihail: Yeah, that's right. (20:23)
Alexey: What about data science? What is it? Is it more engineering or is it more research? (20:25)
Mihail: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think data science has changed a lot in the last, maybe 8-10 years, maybe 5-10 years. I think that at a high level, data science has really gone through different phases. When data science really began as a field, I think it was this huge umbrella term. It still is an umbrella term, but especially back then. It’s what I think of as ‘Data Science 1.0,’ which is when, all of a sudden, companies and different groups realized that there was a lot of data that was coming in that had to be processed in some way. That was being combined with the fact that there would be modeling advancements, where now people were trying to see “How can I extract some insight from those new data sources that we now have?” But what ended up happening, I think, is that people just went on hiring splurges. They just hired a bunch of data scientists to ‘do data’ – whatever that meant. There wasn't really a clear strategy about “What does it mean to extract insight from data?” And “How do you do that in a way that actually helps a company?” as an example. (20:31)
Mihail: So that was data science at one point. I think that now we're living through what I consider ‘Data Science 2.0,’ which is where we are starting to realize and develop systems for going from extracting the data insights to something that's commercially viable and that can deliver value to people. Building out that pipeline and building that system is something that we're really refining nowadays. A lot of the time it is really more engineering than it is science. That's not to say that science isn't there – there absolutely is science there. But it's something where the tools have become so good on the scientific standpoint, that now there's really just a lot more of an emphasis on improving the tooling on the engineering standpoint – to make that transition from science to engineering more seamless – and really just setting yourself up for success to do that.
Alexey: I also think in data science, like in research, you often don't know if your idea is going to work. So you still have this experimentation aspect. You still need to come up with a hypothesis, and then you need to prove that this hypothesis works. Maybe come up with a POC and then deploy it. Then you also have the engineering part there to show that, “Okay, this hypothesis works. Now let's throw it out to all the users.” So it's kind of a combination of both worlds. (22:19)
Mihail: Yeah. I don't think there is single data science or machine learning team out there – even if they're doing something that doesn't seem like it's very novel from a research standpoint – that doesn't have some experimentation. Just the nature of doing data-driven machine learning work is such that, even if you're just reproducing a paper, you have to run experiments. You're going to have to deal with issues of reproducibility, building proof of concepts, you know, “Oh, they say one thing on the paper. I'm not seeing the same results here.” There's always this disconnect that happens there. So, you're absolutely right. I think that data science just anywhere, regardless of the level of sophistication and organization, will involve some level of science. (22:53)
Alexey: What do you think machine learning engineers and researchers can learn from each other? (23:32)
Mihail: Hey, that's the core of the talk! I think it's a very interesting question, honestly. I've worn a lot of different hats in my career, and depending on the room that I'm in and that I've been in, you deal with people that think very, very differently. There is actually this pretty big disconnect between how scientists and researchers think about things and how engineers tend to think about things. I think some of the actual problems that I've seen – sometimes these two roles don't really appreciate each other, or what one contributes to the other. But I really do believe that in the best of all possible worlds, and the best of all possible organizations, they see that the best things happen when they work together and collaborate very closely. That's where I've seen the best work and the fastest work being done. (23:38)
Mihail: Concretely speaking, when I look at a researcher – what does a researcher have to learn from an engineer? Engineers tend to think about things in terms of very deterministic systems. They build systems that are very robust, and that have this very kind of expected predictable path through. There's a lot of rigor in how engineers build systems. That's not something that we typically think of when we think of researchers. Researchers are sort of more exploratory. They think about these ad hoc problems, or they think about, “Hey, what happens if I do this?” They maybe don't have the same level of structure that an engineer will have.
Mihail: But I think that if you adopt some of the practices around engineering, even just the low-level programmatic aspects – how you code something – that involves testing more thoroughly, using things that static typing. I think that will make you much more effective. But then I think that engineers are also really good at having a very scrappy way of doing things. When engineers face a problem, they are very good about saying something like, “Alright. Roll up your sleeves. Let's dive into any part of the stack we need to in order to solve the problem.” So they really are comfortable going across the full stack.
Mihail: Whereas researchers – at least a lot of researchers that I've worked with in the past – they sometimes have this mentality of “Well, certain problems are beneath me.” And then maybe, like, “I really just think about science. I just think about research. I don't really want to think about how to spin up an EC2 instance.” Or something along those lines. That's just not something they concern themselves with, or even want to concern themselves with. But I think that's a pretty destructive mindset, honestly. Because if you don't think about these things, and you aren’t comfortable with some of these engineering aspects, then you're gonna introduce dependencies in your own work. If you're a researcher and you want to do something, you're gonna have to use a cloud provider. So if you don't know how to use that, then you're gonna have to depend on someone else just to do even the most basic things. That'll slow you down. I don't think it's the best way to do things. I think adopting some of that scrappiness is really useful for researchers.
Mihail: On the counter side, I think that researchers have a lot of things they can offer engineers as well. Researchers are really good at dealing with situations of uncertainty. This is something that happens in machine learning all the time, right? We talked about uncertainty in hypothesis-driven research. But even for any company that's doing any machine learning, there's a whole lot of uncertainty that building machine learning models introduce. “Will it even work? Will it work as well as I think it will? I don't know. It's hard to say.”
Mihail: But a researcher is incredibly comfortable with that way of thinking about things because that's all they do. They think about things in probabilities, right? “There's some chance that’ll work and some chance that it doesn't work.” But engineers, especially ones that are classically trained, are maybe not super comfortable with that level of uncertainty in their work. They really want that kind of strict ‘if/then’ relationship. It makes sense, right? If you deal with engineering systems, you've never asked yourself, “Will I be able to query my database?” Or “Will I be able to write to my database?” You just expect that these things will happen. So I think engineers can adopt some of that uncertainty-driven way of thinking.
Mihail: I also think that researchers tend to be better at running experiments than engineers. I've definitely worked with engineers in the past where they'll build something and they'll sort of run some experiments. Or maybe they'll conclude that a model maybe isn't as good as they think it is. They're coming to those conclusions because they haven't maybe been as deliberate about hyperparameter tuning or refining some aspects of the model, which is something that researchers are super good at doing. They maintain very clear experimental logs. They'll make sure that when I say “This hypothesis doesn't work.” You can be pretty certain that there are confidence intervals; calculated p-values – all these things. So researchers are just really good about being rigorous in those aspects of machine learning work.
Alexey: I remember when I was going from being a software engineer to being a data scientist, I really struggled with maintaining this experimentation work. I had such a mess and it was just too difficult to find out what's going on. You said that “What researchers can learn from engineers is structuring your projects” which also includes coding – having some structure there will help you have less of a mess in your code. Then you mentioned “Be comfortable with stepping outside of your comfort zone.” In other words, being able to say “I don't know how to do this.” You can just try different things. This way, you don't depend on others. You don't wait till somebody comes to you and helps you to press this ‘create instance’ button on AWS. That's two things that they can learn. (28:50)
Alexey: Then what engineers can learn from researchers is: how to handle uncertainty and how to be comfortable with uncertainty. It's not always ‘if/then,’ right? It's not always a set of strict rules – sometimes there is uncertainty. They can also learn how to be good with experiments – how to maintain this experimentation work. Did I miss anything?
Mihail: I think that’s good. (30:15)
Alexey: You also said that there is a lot of disconnect between researchers and engineers. I imagine that, especially if you're at university, you don't always have industry partners. You're working independently. You have 100 papers. You're doing this breadth-first search there. You kind of start living in your own bubble, right? You don't necessarily have this connection with the real world – how things are done in the industry. (30:16)
Alexey: Then when it comes to engineers, they also don't always work with data scientists. You also said that either side doesn't necessarily appreciate what the other is doing. And that great things happen when you put them in one room. Right?
Alexey: Maybe we can talk about that a bit? So, how can we put them together in one room? How can businesses and organizations achieve the best results from their efforts?
Mihail: Yeah. I think it's a hard problem. And it's not one that I think any organization has really solved completely. Because part of the work in doing that comes from a cultural aspect, right? If you imagine that researchers are accustomed to being with other researchers in the same room, or maybe by themselves in their own room, and then you have engineers that are so accustomed to working with other engineers, – they really just have fundamentally different ways of thinking about things. I do think that there's a certain aspect where leaders that oversee these kinds of hybrid organizations do have to make an effort to encourage this cross-pollination and make sure that people understand that there is value that comes from each of the other organizations. (31:25)
Mihail: I've definitely been in teams and worked with teams where there really is an almost – I wouldn't say strong resentment – but there is a resentment where an engineer is talking about a data scientist or a data scientist is talking about an engineer, and they're just like, “Oh. What are they even doing? They don't really know what they're talking about. They don't even write good code.” There are really those types of attitudes sometimes. They're not always that toxic, but maybe at a lower level. Sometimes they’re just “Yeah, I don't really get what they do and I don't know how they do it.”
Mihail: So I think part of it is cultural. I think that you have to encourage cross-pollination within the organization, where you put people in situations where they have to work together. I think that different organizations have tried over the last 5-10 years of progression of data science and machine learning. They've tried different models for how to integrate machine learning into an engineering organization. I've seen a number of different models in the places where I've worked. A few models that I haven't seen work really well are those where you just silo off the researchers from the engineers. They literally create these almost separate units. You kind of think, “Alright. Well, maybe they're doing this because a lot of places have these strict lines that make it clear what the responsibilities are.” And that's great.
Mihail: But I think that in practice, what ends up happening is you get this, ‘throw the model over the wall’ kind of approach. You have a researcher that builds something, and they're like, “Hey, engineer, go handle this.” The engineer gets the model, they write some inference code on top of the model. They deploy it. The model isn't doing well. Someone starts yelling at the engineer. The engineer says, “Oh, well. I don't know what's going on here. I don’t even know what the model is doing.” It goes back to the researcher. The researcher says “Well, your inference code is wrong,” or “Did I even give you the right pickle file?” So there are all kinds of latency issues and just bad stuff that happens when you really separate these two roles.
Alexey: And what's worse – let's say that the researchers wrote the code in R, they want to rewrite it in Java. And when you rewrite the code from R to Java, things break. Then it's in production, and then the researcher says, “Okay. Well, you know what? This piece of R code is actually – I have no idea what your Java code is doing, but it seems like maybe this part is not correct.” Then the engineers think, like, “What even is this? Why do you use this funny language?” [laughs] (34:20)
Mihail: All true. I've seen these things happen. Honestly, some of the funny stuff I've seen – I remember being in a debugging session where we were hashing model files to make sure that we were passing the right model files from one place to the next. So you're literally looking at the byte representations of something to make sure that somebody hadn’t maybe used an earlier version of a model or something like that. You know, even funnier stuff like that. (34:54)
Mihail: But yes, I think that this siloed-off approach is really bad. It reinforces the exact disconnects that tend to happen. I think that the far better approach that I've seen in organizations, especially from a business standpoint, is when the two are just embedded right next to each other – where you have engineers and researchers working together hand-in-hand. This is typically in the context of a product. You'll have a scientist and a researcher literally in the same room, or in the same office space, working on things. You can imagine that that introduces a lot of speed – there's not as much communication latency. There's also a lot more diffusion of knowledge. All of a sudden, researchers are seeing answers to things like, “What does it mean to actually put something into production? What are the things that engineers are doing?” And vice versa. The engineers are saying, “Oh. They're getting more insight into what the model is doing.” So really, this hand-in-hand kind of collaboration is great.
Mihail: In the extreme case, I've even seen organizations where even the researchers have on-call rotations. On-call being something that engineers hate. I mean, no one really likes it, in some sense. But you can imagine a researcher, who's so accustomed to working on papers, getting a call at three in the morning because the service is down. They’re probably developing a good appreciation for what engineers have to go through, if they're sleepy-eyed trying to debug a model that is now down. Someone's complaining in a blah-blah part of the world. That's a little extreme, but I've seen it happen. And it's maybe not the craziest thing in the world.
Alexey: I do agree that the approach with different teams works a lot worse than the embedded approach, where it’s one team. What I also saw is, if you have an embedded team, you still have tasks that are done by researchers and tasks that are done by the engineers. They still form these little silos in the team. Does that happen usually? How do you actually make them work together? (36:57)
Mihail: Yeah. I think it can happen. And I think sometimes it's a function of the leadership as well. The people that are either the product managers or the technical managers – how much are they making sure that there is active collaboration going on? People will always default to the thing they're comfortable with. I think that's just a human characteristic. People like to do things they're comfortable with. But a lot of the time, if you have good leaders, they might step in and say, “All right, something is getting too siloed off. I’ll make sure that there is a very active flow of communication all the time, and that there are updates happening.” If you're fostering that collaboration as much as you can, then that's where things are most productive. I think it can be done well. I've seen the embedded model work incredibly well and incredibly high performance teams have come out of the embedded model that I've been involved with. It does require deliberate effort on the part of whoever oversees the team. (37:28)
Alexey: Yeah, I imagine that if a team is working in sprints – let's say a sprint is two weeks. “Okay, for the next two weeks, the entire team is working on checking a hypothesis.” Then the engineers say, “Okay, now I have to open this Jupyter that I don't like, and experiment with the other side.” Then a week later, “Okay, now that we have this pickle file, let's – everyone together – deploy.” And then the data scientists say “Whoops. What is this Terraform thing?” Is that right? (38:37)
Mihail: Yeah. [laughs] We joke about it, but I think that's absolutely right. It's funny, because there are organizations that don't even specify the roles. Like DoorDash – apparently they don’t specify the exact roles that each of their scientists do. They don't specifically pigeonhole people into roles. They really just encourage fluidity and the kind of responsibilities that people have. You can imagine, in that situation, people end up working on things they like to work on, but they are also forced to learn a lot of new things. Like the data scientist who has to learn Terraform or the researcher that has to open up a Jupyter hub notebook. (39:08)
Alexey: Yeah, interesting. In the case of DoorDash, what do they call their employees? So they just call everyone engineers? Or do they call them ‘staff’, or…? (39:42)
Mihail: That I don't know. I actually don't know what the titles are. But I do know that they are very flexible about their responsibilities. For example, what a data scientist works on and what an engineer works on. As I said, they don't pigeonhole people into responsibilities. They really just say, “Yeah, you’re the data scientist and you want to touch on some production code – go ahead.” I mean, you're gonna feel more motivated when doing it. And you probably should take a look at it, because it'll help you. I think that when you do that, you get much more diverse and well-balanced ML practitioners as a result. (39:52)
Alexey: We already have a question from Roa about full-stack data scientists. I think this is something that I actually also wanted to cover. Maybe we can talk a bit about that. What are your thoughts about full-stack data scientists? What are they? What do they do? (40:33)
Mihail: It's an interesting term. I subscribe to it a lot, but I think that in some ways, a full-stack data scientist is similar to an ML engineer. I think the responsibilities can be very similar. For young machine learning organizations – ones that are really just getting their machine learning efforts started – I think it's important to have someone who can really span the full stack of responsibilities. Teams that I've worked with and collaborated with, sometimes they'll say, “Hey, we're looking to get into data science, so we should just hire data scientists.” And I always say, “Well, yes. You should have a data scientist. But be careful with the kind of person that you're picking.” (40:52)
Mihail: Because you don't want someone who’s just going to say, “Hey, here's some data. Go deal with some data.” In that ‘data science point’ way of thinking about things. You really want someone who feels comfortable going from the data science work – the actual analyzing and building the models – to then ultimately, either doing the deployment and the engineering themselves, or is very comfortable interfacing with engineers. My friend, and I think he's been on this podcast as well, Eugene, wrote about the full-stack data scientist. I very much subscribe to that way of thinking about things.
Mihail: A lot of the best people I've known are ones that are kind of ‘jack of all trades’ in some sense. That obviously has its pros and cons, but being able to make that full transition from one to the other, I think it makes you way better-versed in all the problems that come up in deploying a fully-fledged data product. So I think the ‘full-stack data scientist,’ this relatively new role – it's been a few years now – but somebody who can just handle all those tasks from the deployment, as well as those pure machine learning aspects [is necessary].
Alexey: So are they more engineers because they can just go ahead and do whatever it takes to deploy or to test something? But they're also still data scientists – they still need to experiment with different things and maybe be able to train a model, whether it’s a regression model, classification model – image classification or visual classification. They can do that as well. Maybe they won’t train an NLP model as good as an NLP researcher will, but they might have a model that is 80% accurate and then spend the time deploying it. (42:45)
Alexey: You mentioned these NLP ‘long tail’ kinds of problems and that you don't spend a lot of time to get it to 80% of accuracy. Then you spent an immense amount of time covering the remaining 20. For the first 80%, you need a full-stack data scientist, right?
Mihail: Honestly, I think there's a lot of business problems where you maybe don't even need the full 100%. A lot of products that I've seen people work on are ones where they build assistive data science technology. Ones, where they anticipate that they’re never gonna, get 100%. So if they can at least handle 90% really well, then they can always find some smart way of doing a ‘human in the loop’ type of thing, where they can defer the stuff that they're not as confident about. So you're absolutely right, I would go as far as to say that for a lot of business use cases, we don't even need 99.9% exact state of the art – we need maybe 90%, but then something robust around it to make it better. That really does take you most of the way there. (43:50)
Alexey: Right. So if machine learning researchers are listening to this conversation, would you give them any advice to improve their engineering skills? (44:36)
Mihail: Absolutely. I always encourage diffusion. I've gone from one to the other and back. In some sense, I've gone both directions. I've always felt that when I came back, I was just so much more confident in a lot of things. As I said, when I came back to Amazon and was in more of this machine learning engineer role, I just felt so much more productive at what I was doing – so much faster about iterating on ideas, even from a research standpoint. (44:52)
Mihail: So I do think that researchers should be deliberate about learning to engineer systems well. I think they should take the time to build out those engineering fundamentals. That means doing so from an exercise standpoint, even if you just do it for yourself – it doesn't have to be in the business context. It's great if it’s in the business context. But even if you're just trying to learn on your own – going through that full pipeline yourself will be very informative. So don't just train that model in Jupyter hub. Go to the next step. Actually, try and put it onto AWS or whatever cloud provider you’re using. Really go through those steps. That's one thing you can do – just force yourself to come to appreciate a lot of those aspects.
Mihail: Then I think the other thing that I found incredibly useful in different contexts, if you're a researcher, get an engineer or someone else to do code reviews on your code. I think that's one of the fastest ways to learn a lot about how to engineer systems. When you have someone, especially someone that's more experienced than you, looking at the stuff that you're writing and telling you, “Hey, this isn’t great. You can do this a little bit better.” Or something like that. The ratio of the time to how much you learn is immense. I've gone through so many horrible code reviews in my time and each time I just felt like I was getting so much better, like, “Oh, wow, I didn't even think about how to do that!” A lot of engineering lessons were learned that way.
Alexey: So – ask somebody to sit down with you and together go through the code line by line. Not just “Check my pull request.” and getting a ‘looks good to me’ in response. Right? (46:57)
Mihail: Yeah, not like when you just want to merge something into master and you say, “Hey, can you just…?” “Okay, fine.” No. Literally someone who will ‘destroy’ your code in some sense. Not literally destroy, but I'm saying someone who will constructively help you to build it out. (47:11)
Alexey: Okay. So first, you said “Be deliberate about learning engineering.” Don't treat it as an afterthought. “Okay, let me first do this hacky thing, and then let's see if I ever need engineering.” Then the second thing is, “Get somebody to sit with you and review your code.” (47:30)
Mihail: That’s right. (47:50)
Alexey: Likewise – if there is an engineer listening to this podcast right now, what advice would you give to them to improve themselves and be more research-minded? (47:51)
Mihail: Yeah. I think that part of building empathy between the two also comes down to understanding how researchers think. For engineers, you can take the time to even just read some papers and start to see how researchers think about problems. You'll immediately start seeing what a researcher’s responsibilities will involve and how researchers think about problems. “How do they think about approaches to problems?” Even if you just try to understand the structure of a paper, you can see why experiments are done in certain ways and what it means to very deliberately and methodically run experiments to validate a hypothesis. That's something that engineers that have never read a paper don't really understand, like, “What does it even mean to really do research?” I think papers are a fantastic way to do that. (48:04)
Mihail: If you really want to go the next step, to really understand how to run, how to build, how to do good research, and how to be more research-minded – go through the exercise of trying to improve on the state of the art of something. Even if it’s unsuccessful – if you take a state-of-the-art model, and you say, “Well, I'm going to try to improve this a little bit.” Go through that exercise of trying to add something new to the architecture or trying an X, Y or Z thing. It's not just about adding the modeling aspect, but going through the process of setting up your system so you can run experiments and then keeping track of those experiments. Then going back and saying “Well, maybe this didn't work. How can I add something else?” I think going through that exercise, in the same way, that for researchers doing the engineering exercise will teach them a lot, going through the research exercise will also teach you a lot about uncertainty in work and how you can do things in a way where you keep track of things very well and iterating on things constructively.
Alexey: By improving state-of-the-art, I don't think you mean going there and beating the first position in ImageNet? You mean something like improving accuracy and things like that, right? (49:52)
Mihail: I mean, that would be great. If you can do that, then more power to you. I think just trying to get to the point where you're even just taking a state-of-the-art system and fiddling with it a little bit to see, “What does it mean?” Like “How hard is it really if I took something off of the transformers library?” Which is supposed to be state of the art.” At first “Can I reproduce the state of the art?” and then, “What happens if I start like adding a thing here and there?” I mean, great – if you can build it and you can train state-of-the-art systems – that's fantastic. Then you may have another job waiting for you somewhere else at DeepMind or whatever. But even just trying to pull it and seeing what it means to have a state-of-the-art system is also informative. (50:02)
Alexey: It probably doesn't have to be state-of-the-art worldwide – it can be just within your company. Maybe there is a model, like a recommender system or some classification system. You can try to figure out what's going on there and how these things work. Maybe you'll notice some things that could be improved and then you can come up with a suggestion, and then try to improve it. This way, of course, you need to track everything – track your experiments – and then be able to show later to others “Okay, I actually tried this and it works. Here's the experiment. Let's now integrate this into our system. Let's improve it.” Right? (50:42)
Mihail: Exactly. That’s absolutely right. (51:27)
Alexey: Your first point was about reading papers. I remember for me, I was a Java developer, and then I got into my Master’s degree – I was doing my Master Thesis – and then I needed to read papers. I opened this paper, and there was a lot of math. The language is so boring and it puts me to sleep. That was my impression, I don't know if it's true for everyone. But sometimes they are written in a language that makes it sound more complex than it should be. Right? So how do you actually go about reading these papers when you don't understand half of the symbols in them? Maybe you recognize sigma for sum, but for others…? How do you do that? (51:28)
Mihail: That's right. Yeah, researchers are definitely guilty of that. Not even from a joke standpoint, that's actually very true. This is a whole separate topic of conversation around “How do you get accepted into a conference?” And “How do you maybe inflate something so that it sounds cooler?” You add the math to make it seem cooler and more sophisticated than it actually is. That's a whole separate topic of discussion. (52:19)
Mihail: But you're right. I think that, especially if you don't come from that world, these papers can be very dense and very difficult to read. There are alternatives, though. One really good thing that has happened because of how popular machine learning has become, is that people have gotten really good at summarizing and trying to create their own understandings of papers. Thus, you have a lot of great tutorials – some of them are interactive tutorials that people have written for a lot of models and papers about models. So if something is too dense for you in its raw form in the primary source, then there are certainly secondary sources that people have done well and explained well.
Mihail: Then there’s another thing that I think can help. If you're committed to going through that exercise, then I would collaborate with a researcher. I would pull in a researcher if something doesn't make sense and say “What does this mean? Like, I get the sigma, but can you explain what this is doing?” Adding that layer of collaboration will also just be good for team building. That's what a researcher is supposed to be good at. They should be able to give you insights. As far as the boredom is concerned, that aspect is a bit harder to sell [laughs] whether or not you find it boring.
Alexey: Basically, it’s the same advice for researchers – pull in machine learning engineers, or engineers, to do code review. You can actually apply it here the other way. Just get a researcher, try to read the paper together and ask them to translate this thing for you. Ask questions. Okay, cool. (54:07)
Alexey: Also, I think nowadays many papers actually have code, either from the authors or somebody who tried to reproduce the results and put the code somewhere there. I think that could also be helpful for engineers. Maybe engineers understand code better. Although I'm not sure if this code is written by researchers or not. If that’s the case, it could be difficult to understand. Probably going through the code could be even easier.
Mihail: If you find a good code base – absolutely. But a big caveat to the people that are listening – and this is something I've seen in my career and I always try to get them out of this mindset whenever I work with researchers – research code is not the best in the world. It can be stale and not updated very frequently. So yeah. Good luck. It's almost like if it doesn't work from the first go, good luck diving into it and trying to understand what the matrices are doing and what each one represents. The translation is a whole separate issue. (55:00)
Alexey: Right. Let's say somebody is listening to this podcast, and they're maybe doing their Bachelor’s, and they are thinking, “Okay, should I go to industry and work as an engineer? Or should they go to get a Master’s and then do a PhD and do research?” Do you have any advice for people who need to decide what they like more? How should they choose? (55:31)
Mihail: Yeah. I think that's where one of the most important things is to be introspective. You really have to ask yourself, “What parts of these problems am I most interested in?” If you understand what each of the roles does – if you understand that, as a machine learning engineer, you'll be handling a lot more engineering nowadays. Or if you’re doing a full-stack data scientist role, likely, it's gonna be a lot of engineering. If you're aware of those responsibilities, then that's important when you choose. But you first have to understand what you are getting yourself into in either situation. (55:56)
Mihail: In one, you're going to be on deployment, monitoring, handling all these engineering aspects, maybe a little bit of modeling, but not really as much nowadays. Then on the science aspect, you're typically just going to be working on open-ended problems, a lot of experiments, the tooling might be a little bit different. If you understand that base level, “Here's what each role entails.” Then you can ask yourself, “Well, okay. Does one field pull me more than the other?” I think in the ideal situation if you're really early on in your career, I suggest going and trying and do a little bit of both. If you can, that is.
Mihail: I think that one of the really great things about being at the early part of your career is that you have the flexibility to work on internships where you can do things that maybe you will never do further on in your career. But at least you can see what it's like to do those things. I remember very early in my career, I did nanofabrication work in an electrical engineering lab, where I was wearing like a Breaking Bad bunny suit, literally growing carbon nanotubes. I spent a good four or five months doing that and I was like, “This is cool, but it's not something that I can see myself doing long term.” So giving yourself the opportunity to try that, even just for a little bit, it's a pretty low-risk way to see if something really resonates with you. And then if you can see yourself doing that farther along in your career.
Alexey: I don't know if this is good advice, but what worked for me was – I did a Master’s, and in Germany Master’s degrees are free. I know that in the States that’s not the case. But I needed to write my Master thesis. For that, I needed to read a lot of papers, and I needed to experiment a lot. By doing this for half a year, I realized that maybe this is not the thing I enjoy doing the most. So it could be a way of checking as well. Just go and do something. You don't have to do a Master's for that, especially if it costs an arm and a leg. (57:53)
Mihail: Yeah, if you're in an institution that has research labs, I always recommend for undergrads to do research, even if it’s just to try it. Most places have really good research professors. If you're working with a PhD student, they're always happy to have someone help. So if you just go and knock on a PhD student’s door and say, “Hey, I can code pretty well. Can I just do some research with you?” I've rarely seen someone saying no. (58:31)
Alexey: Okay. I know we should be wrapping up, but I have one more question that you will probably like. I wanted to ask you a few words about your project – Confetti. What is it? What is it for? And what is there? (58:56)
Mihail: Yeah. It’s a project that a friend of mine and I started about a year and a half ago – it was born over a dinner conversation once in the Bay Area. Really, we came to this conclusion that we have been doing so much interviewing and we've gone through so many different parts of our career thinking about machine learning and the ‘right’ machine learning role and data science. We found ourselves sort of recreating and reinventing ways of doing things and ways of preparing for these things. Between the two of us, we've done hundreds of interviews, and every time we found ourselves kind of patching together different resources to understand “How do I prepare for this? What are the kinds of questions that are going to be asked?” When it comes to data science machine learning rules, there's really not a standardized process for preparing for these roles. And that’s not just from the interview standpoint – I think the interview sampling is really important and there aren’t a lot of good tools to do that. But even just from your career standpoint. (59:12)
Mihail: Earlier in the conversation, we talked about ‘Data Science 1.0’ and ‘Data Science 2.0’. I saw that transition, of course, in my career – how the role evolved. So Confetti was really like a tool that we built to really scratch our own itch and say, “If I were starting today, what would I want someone to tell me about not only ‘how I get a job in these fields?’ but what should I be thinking about going into a career in this field?” And “How do I dispel and share that knowledge with other people, so that others can learn from my mistakes?” Which I've made more than my fair share of. Confetti was really this platform that we built to try and codify a lot of these best practices that we have learned over the course of our time, based around “How do I prepare to be a machine learning engineer? How do I prepare to be a data engineer? What are the kinds of things I should be thinking about? What are the resources I should be thinking about and using to learn?”
Mihail: So far, the reception has been very warm. People have found it very useful and people have gotten jobs using this platform, which we're really happy to see. But a lot of it is really just about getting people to learn from some of the stuff that we've learned. We wanted people to start ahead of us, in some sense – ahead of the point that we were at when we were just bumbling through in the early days.
Alexey: That's pretty nice of you to put this together and make it available for others. Thanks. So, how can people find you? (1:01:40)
Mihail: Me, personally? (1:01:50)
Alexey: Yeah, if they want to ask a question or a follow-up question – stuff like that. (1:01:51)
Mihail: I'm pretty active on Twitter. So by all means – direct message me on Twitter. I’m relatively active on LinkedIn. But, yeah, those are two big platforms that come to mind. I have a personal site where I think it's relatively easy to get in touch with me. I'm always happy to help people. I really am very deliberate about when I get emails or messages – I will try to answer all of them. I do believe in paying things forward. So much of where I’m at in my career is just because of the generosity of people's time and the things that people have taught me. So, I'm always happy to talk to people that are just getting started, want to bounce ideas off of, have questions about how to do something – I'm always happy to talk. (1:01:54)
Alexey: Thanks a lot. Thanks for coming today. Thanks for sharing your experience. That was really great. And thanks, everyone, for joining us today – for watching, for asking questions. I think that's all for today. (1:02:36)
Mihail: Thank you, Alexey. I really appreciate being here. It was a great conversation. (1:02:50)
Alexey: I guess that's it then. Goodbye. Have a great rest of the day and have a great weekend. (1:02:53)
Subscribe to our weekly newsletter and join our Slack.
We'll keep you informed about our events, articles, courses, and everything else happening in the Club.